Baptists and Beverage Alcohol

/ Tim A.

There is an age old controversy in Christianity waging over the issue of beverage alcohol.  Is it proper or allowable for Christians to drink socially, as long as they do not get drunk?  Does Scripture say anything against the drinking of beverage alcohol?  These are questions that are being asked by many Christians, and even Baptists Christians.

For many years Baptists have been known to be “Tea-totalers”.  Personally, I do not think that to be a bad thing.  In recent months and years the idea of Baptists being temperant concerning beverage alcohol has come into question.  It has been a source of controversy at the Southern Baptist Convention’s annual meeting and recently at the Missouri Baptist Convention’s annual meeting.

To my point of view it has become a question due to the fact that many younger pastors are saying that the Bible says nothing against a social drink of beverage alcohol.  There are several of us, young and old, who disagree with that assessment.  There is example after example in Scripture of the danger or the drink.  In articles I have written at Fire and Hammer I have written of two examples.  The first is of Noah who having come off the ark, grows a vineyard, drinks too heavily of its fruit, and becomes drunkened by it, and brings a curse on a member of the family.  The second is of Lot, after being delivered with his two daughters from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, is given wine to make him drunk, by his daughers for the purpose of incestual impregnation; another evidence of moral decay, and Lot goes along by allowing himself to become drunk.

There are also verses which argue against the drink of beverage alcohol.  For example Proverbs 20:1; 23:29-35; and 31:1-6.  Every time these verses are presented the one’s who are in favor of “License” or “Freedom in Christ” as they want to call it, will run circles around these and do everything they can to explain them away.  There are also some New Testament Scriptures concerning a “sound mind” which needs to be taken into consideration concerning beverage alcohol (Ephesians 5:18; 2 Timothy 1:7; 1 Peter 1:13).  At what point does one become drunk?  At what point does the alcohol begin to take your mind?  Does anyone know the answer to these questions?  If the answer to these questions cannot be known, then, in my thinking that is another reason to remain abstinent from beverage alcohol.

I will agree with my brother in Christ David Tolliver who is the Interim Executive Director of the Missouri Baptist Convention; that there is no place in the Bible that says, “Thou shalt not drink beverage alcohol”, however, there are many which speak of its dangers.  It is my conviction when the Bible doesn’t say “Thou shalt not…”, but our tradition says “Let’s not…”, then, I will stand with the tradition rather than try to allow loose living and morality.  That is where this debate over the alcohol issue will lead us if we lower our standards.

Do we want to lower our standards to allow a few to come in?  I choose to remain faithful to the Bible and the tradition which does not allow loose living.  This is not a matter of salvation, but of sanctification and holiness.

edited the links given above on Noah and Lot because of the deletion of THE WATCHMAN’S TRUMPET. 01/09/10

T.A.

47 thoughts on “Baptists and Beverage Alcohol”

  1. I already proved that your usage of Jeremiah was weak, at best. You misinterpreted the meaning of it. If I am wrong, then, as I said, we must not drink wine, or build houses, or sow seeds, and we should live in tents. You did not reply to that because you faced an impossible dilemma. I have read all of your replies, and one of your debating techniques is to avoid what you cannot answer. Let me rephrase it, to see you you will try to address the dilemma:

    If Jeremiah 35 is an “illustration of God’s approval” of not drinking, then why is it not an “illustration of God’s approval” of not building houses, of not sowing seeds, and of living in tents? Please answer the question.
    .
    Secondly, you want me to prove that Jesus drank wine. Isn’t the burden of proof on you to prove the contrary? I could say to you, “Prove that Jesus did not drink wine”. You can’t. Or can you? But common sense indicates that Jesus did drink wine. Your own reference to Noah damages your cause. If Noah planted a vineyard, and then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and if the Bible makes so many references to becoming drunk, and if Jesus drank of the fruit of the vine during the Last Supper, how can you think that He did not drink wine? Do you really think it’s logical to believe that each time Jesus reclined at table, He drank grape juice? You seem to be ignoring the Bible itself, which clearly indicates that wine was consumed during merrymaking as a part of Jewish culture. So, how can you prove that Jesus did NOT drink wine? Please answer the question.

    Thirdly, you wrote, “A sound mind is not possible with alcohol on the brain.” If that is so, then why is it legal to drive after consuming a moderate amount of alcohol? Please answer the question.

    I asked you three very precise questions in three separate paragraphs. Please answer each one of them in separate paragraphs, if you don’t mind.

    Thanks for your time.

    Steven

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    • They were challenged to drink wine, and no mention of not building a house, etc. except from them. They had the wine put before them, not a house.
      My evidence for Jesus not drinking beverage alcohol is that He speaks against putting it to your neighbors mouth in Habakkuk: and “Look not on the the wine when it is red, when it moveth itself in the cup…” (Proverbs 23:31) If Jesus turned water into beverage alcohol then He violated His own words, and contributed to the drunkenness at the wedding party.
      That is not my Jesus.
      Your answer to the question of driving after “Moderately consuming alcohol” shows the stupidity of drinking and of the law; not of God.
      The truth of the matter is that you will debate this issue till we are both blue in the face; from alcohol or not 🙂 and we are not going to come to an agreement.
      I only pray that as you feel free to consume beverage alcohol your children will one day not be receiving DWI’s or DUI’s because Daddy or Momma said, “It is okay to drink”. Moderation has the distinct possibility of leading to drunkenness. The surest answer for not ever getting drunk is do not drink.
      This will be my last response.
      Thanks for your interest.
      T.A.

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  2. The example of Jeremiah 35 (The Obedient Rechabites) is very weak, at best. First of all, not only did they abstain from drinking wine, but also from building houses, sowing seeds, planting vineyards, and they had to dwell in tents. God did reward them:

    18 And Jeremiah said to the house of the Rechabites, “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Because you have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts and done according to all that he commanded you, 19 therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not lack a man to stand before Me forever.”’”

    Therefore, according to your logic, we must not drink wine, or build houses, or sow seeds, and we should live in tents.

    The true meaning of this chapter should be clear to you: God rewarded these people because they obeyed the commandments given them by their father. Indeed: “16 Surely the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them, but this people has not obeyed Me.” God was angry because His own children were not obeying Him, so he blessed the Rechabites for obeying their father, and doomed His own people for not obeying their Father.

    It had nothing to do with not drinking wine. It was a matter of obeying your father. If I’m wrong, then, as I said, you must not build a house ever, nor sow seeds, and you should live in a tent.

    I myself do not drink ever, but I have Christian friends who are as righteous as they come, who do drink with moderation on special occasions. If they drank excessively, they would not be righteous Christians. There’s a big difference between an occasional glass of wine and behaving in a decadent manner that pleases Satan.

    Finally, Jesus did drink wine, but He never got drunk. Therefore, you should not be telling people that it’s not Christian to drink wine.

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    • Prove that Jesus drank wine. Prove that your statement of Jeremiah is weak. Besides of Jeremiah 35 I was simply using it as a illustration of God’s approval of not drinking. There is no approval of drinking anywhere. There is of maintaining a “sound mind”. A sound mind is not possible with alcohol on the brain.
      Thanks for your interest.
      T.A.

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  3. Tim:

    Thanks for your apology. No offense taken, just wanted to point out what I think is flawed logic in your position on this issue.

    A few quick responses:

    Idol worship is idol worship. Whether it’s money, food, sex, alcohol, etc. doesn’t matter to God. The end results of idol worship (i.e. consequences of sin) don’t always look the same, but they are all holy offenses in God’s eyes and sent Jesus to the cross. The point is that it is completely valid to compare the sin of drunkenness (not consuming alcohol–it’s not a sin) to any other sin. We choose to worship gifts, not the Giver. Ultimately sin is self-worship–in the end it’s all about us.

    There is also ample evidence in Scripture that wine or strong drink in Scripture are simply that–wine and strong drink. The old argument that at least some of these words in the original languages don’t clearly communicate fermented drink is one that, frankly, has lost any credibility the more I have personally researched this for myself.
    Culturally speaking, there are commercials that tell us we need more and more stuff–doesn’t mean we have to indulge in the ‘prosperity gospel’ of our fallen nature. This world system is under the sway of the Enemy-he is always doing battle with God by doing battle with us. Just because the Enemy entices us to abuse the gift (sin) doesn’t mean we can’t rightly use the gift (alcohol or whatever).

    To imply that a sinner who the Holy Spirit regenerates and opens the eyes of by grace has to be ‘delivered from alcohol’ once and for all is to imply that any use of alcohol is sinful–God only delivers from sin, not the righteous use of what he’s given us to enjoy. In doing this you have set up a dichotomy that makes the believer have to decide to abstain (which equals obedience) or to consume (which equals disobedience, even if consumption is moderate). I’m the Christian you describe as ‘saying it’s ok. it’s a blessing from God.’ You clearly do not approve, which means you think that Christians who consume are doing something sinful. That’s the take-away I get from your stated position. Your statements throughout all your responses to this blog on whether or not moderate consumption is actually sin are VERY inconsistent. Sometimes you say it’s not, other times you imply that it is. Just some constructive criticism for you.

    We’re not kings and queens yet–that comes later when we are in glory with Jesus. Until then we serve him on earth faithfully. The Proverbs passage was directed at actual earthly kings because Solomon himself was one. Many commentators have rightly equated this passage to the king performing his duties, not as a lifestyle of abstinence. I encourage you to review the rest of Solomon’s writings to see how he righteously engaged with fermented wine (along with the rest of Israel). That is a weak Scriptural ground to base a claim that God has prohibited (i.e. called sinful) moderate alcohol consumption for the believer.

    I won’t be responding any more. Engaging in these online conversations takes more time than I have-it’s been quite a while since I’ve done this and now I remember why I stopped. Several individuals (including myself) have clearly laid out the Biblical principles that refute the abstentionist position, and yet you clearly don’t think there’s room for a Romans 14 interpretation of alcohol consumption–one that allows believers to choose their way forward with alcohol based on the strength of their faith and the clarity of their conscience. One that tells those who abstain not to judge those who do not, and those who consume to bear patiently in love with those who do.
    Your position pretty much says that since those who hold your position abstain, all Christians must abstain. The Bible clearly refutes that.

    Thanks for your polite engagement and for taking the time to respond. God’s blessings to you and your family sir.

    Jimmy

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    • Jimmy, whether you or other Christians abstain or not is between you and God. I am simply stating the reasons I believe one should abstain. You will not answer to me. I just believe that I must simply because I never desire to be under the influence of anything except the Spirit of God. Sadly, I know that does not always hold true.
      As for your not responding anymore; you were the one who began the engagement. I do not enjoy debate myself, because I do not believe I do it well. I just know what I believe, and I will stick to it.
      There was a time I believed as you do. After seeing the cultural decay, and witnessing the affects of alcohol on so many, and much Bible study on the “sound mind” I became convinced that alcoholic beverages should be avoided, by anyone who wants to maintain a sound mind at all times.
      To be honest with you I have never drank any alcoholic beverage, except when I was seventeen years of age I drank a small glass of wine. It was nasty and I have not had any since.
      Go and be blessed, but keep a sound mind. 🙂
      T.A.

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  4. Tim:

    I lovingly disagree with your assessments of my position. ‘Cultural approval’ did not ‘invade my thinking.’ I got challenged by a brother on my position and was forced to read the Biblical record (OT and NT) concerning alcohol. Also, I didn’t change my mind about the perils of alcohol–that’s why I renounce drunkenness and excess. The Bible did what it was designed to do: changed my heart attitude (through the Holy Spirit) to align with God’s view on a given subject.

    It may surprise you that (percentage-wise) the majority of references to alcohol in the Bible are positive or neutral (either as a direct reference to alcohol itself as a blessing from God, or as an indirect reference to alcohol as a metaphor of the blessing of God to his people). The remaining small percentage of negative references to alcohol are mostly warnings against drunkenness (i.e. don’t sin in your use of alcohol–glorify God in your use of it)
    Yes, there are warnings not to sin by worshipping the gift, just like there are warnings not to sin through the worship of food, sex, money, spouses, etc. But there is never a prohibition of alcohol consumption (OT or NT; the exceptions are when the priests were performing their duties-and ONLY when the are ON DUTY–a man under a Nazirite vow, and when consuming would be a stumbling block….which is NOT a permanent status assigned to alcohol consumption by Romans 14)

    It’s dangerous to say on the one hand that Christians can disagree on this issue, but on the other hand accuse a brother of worldly thinking (i.e. sinful thinking) by assuming that my position was derived from what the culture says. Might I remind you that worship of alcohol was clearly a problem in Jerusalem and the Roman world when Jesus and the disciples were living? Hence all the warnings against unrighteous use of alcohol (i.e. drunkenness, or alcohol worship). Your tone about my position implies that there is only one right way to think about this.

    Your response did not address the issue of the Christian, evangelical sub-culture calling ‘wine’ (or alcohol) bad when God has clearly called it good and a blessing in his word to us. Declaring ‘bad’ what God has called ‘good’ is a dangerous place to be friend-I think a response by the segment of the Christian community who promote abstention is necessary on this point.

    All the things that you asked about being Phariseeism are not Phariseeism. They are genuine concerns born out of a genuine heart–there can be no doubt about that in reading your post and subsequent comments. You are to be commended, sir; however, you automatically jump to the worst possible scenario with alcohol use in all of these scenarios.

    Do you have the same worst case scenario response to questions of sex (ESPECIALLY in this hyper-sexualized culture we live in)?

    Do you have the same worst case scenario about money (in this uber-greedy culture that promotes money, power, and material possessions)?

    Do you have the same worst case scenario response about food (in a culture that worships the good gift of food, and in a country that tremendously overeats while the starving third world looks on)?

    Do you have the same worst case scenario about physical fitness and stewarding the body (in a culture that worships pristine physical appearance as the only image worthy of having)?

    I could keep filling in the blanks. Phariseeism is not genuine care and concern for the well being of individuals, as you have implied that I am saying. Phariseeism is adding rules to attain holiness to the God-spoken revelation that we have no holiness apart from God himself, namely through faith in Jesus. Your implication is that by my (presumably righteous) consumption of alcohol, I will cease to have the indwelling Holy Spirit providing the fruit of self-control and will always devolve into drunkenness that winds up in a drunk-driving murder and divorce, all the while neglecting to teach my children the Biblical record about the righteous use of alcohol. That’s a big jump.

    The Biblical record (and God himself), along with the last 1,850 years (or so) of Christian/church history, looks on in disbelief as many 20th/21st century evangelicals take a position on alcohol that is inconceivable to the Israelites of old, Jesus, the apostles, and the vast majority of Christians through the ages.

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    • Jimmy, I apologize if you took those things personally. To compare drinking beverage alcohol with food, sex, money, and even physical fitness is not even anywhere near a proper comparison. None of those those thing affect the sober thinking of the Christian mind or affects one’s driving; at least not in the same fashion.
      There is ample evidence in Scripture of wine being the “fruit of the vine” and non alcoholic which God approves. Everywhere God speaks of the blessings of harvest and wine is mentioned it is speaking of the grapes. Thus the fruit.
      The cultural thing I previously mentioned was not meant to make a charge against you, but I see it happening all around. We are inundated with commercials making the drinking of beverage alcohol get the prettiest girls, handsomest guys, even the brightest and wealthiest of each.
      Everytime, that I have heard the testimony of a man or woman who was saved by the grace of God, they were delivered from alcohol, and they completely put it away from them. Then, we have Christians saying, “It is okay to drink alcohol. It is a blessing from God.” I am sorry. I cannot approve of alcohol for anything but medicine, or fuel for our cars; and I am not so sure about fuel for our cars. 🙂
      It seems to me that wine is making a mockery out of many Christians (Proverbs 20:1).
      I will always see myself and other believers as children of the King, thus kings and queens serving under Him thus I see Proverbs 31:4-5 as prohibition against drinking. The following verses are for medicinal purposes (vv. 6-7). You also may have already noticed that I mentioned this but I will again; God through Jeremiah approved a whole family because they refused to drink beverage alcohol (Jeremiah 35); where do you find any verses commending a whole family for drinking beverage alcohol in Scripture?
      Beware and be safe, and be sober in your thinking.
      T.A.

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  5. Tim:

    I appreciate your conviction. As a former tee-totaler and a young SBC man who has recently walked through this issue about how the Christian should handle beverage alcohol, I’ve had a Martin Luther moment after reading what the Bible actually says about alcohol: ‘Here I stand. I can do no other.’

    I had to stand in front of my First Baptist Church family in the last year as a 29 year old and implore the deacon body to not add the extra-biblical requirement of abstaining from the use and sale of alcohol (and mandatory 60% Sunday school attendance)–to no avail. They used many of the same extra-biblical arguments as you have here. In the end, they amount to modern day Pharisee-ism. Needless to say my family is no longer a part of that congregation–not because we disagreed, but because the root of the issue was their unwillingness to be honest about what the Bible teaches as doctrine versus the tradition of man. Abstention as a rule is a cultural reading of what the Scriptures actually say.

    If God has called wine good, who are we to say that it is bad (other than in excess?)

    I highly encourage you to read about the history of beer. If you didn’t go any farther back in time than the church age, you would be hard pressed to say that the church didn’t invent beer! Beer was present almost everywhere and was considered by the vast majority of Christians for many hundreds of years to be a great blessing of God to his people. Many of the modern comforts we enjoy today (i.e. refrigeration, air conditioning, etc) were direct results of God’s sovereignty in beer as an industry.

    Read some of the Greek writings about the process of wine making. Not until Welch came along did people want to make grapes NOT ferment, much less figure out a way to do it.

    John Wesley, Charles Wesley, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon (for a time), Jonathan Edwards, Martin Luther, John Calvin, the early church fathers, the Jews–God’s choice servants all, responsible drinkers of fermented beverages all.

    Read about how St. Patrick won the Irish people to Christ–with his own personal brewmaster at his side as he visited the Celtic chiefs and clans, not knowing if they would kill him or hear him out.

    Read about the Guinness family in Dublin, Ireland who have that entire city as a testament to their conviction that God had commanded them to use their great wealth and status from being successful brewers in a way that honored and glorified Him-the social good they did as a direct result of Biblical faith in the one true God is nearly unparalleled in history. (see ‘The Search for God and Guinness’ by Stephen Mansfield)

    There’s much more to this story than your letting on, sir. Both in and out of the Bible. Not asking you to change your mind on whether you drink. Just asking for intellectual honesty in the Biblical texts and the history of the world as you approach this subject.

    I’ll end with Luther: ‘Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women?’

    For the glory of Christ and his Church.

    Jimmy

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    • Jimmy, I thank you for your comments. They are all arguments I have heard before. I am sorry you have changed your mind concerning the perils of alcohol. It is the cultural approval that has invaded your thinking however. No one wants to stand apart from the cultural approval. I see no traditional teaching against alcohol. Is it Phariseeism to want to protect people from the dangers of drinking and driving? Is is Phariseeism to want to protect a young couple from ruining their marriage or their life because of alcohol? Is it Phariseeism to want to protect one’s children from the possibility of becoming a drunkard or an alcoholic because they kept liquor in their home?
      I have no law which says one must not drink in order to be a Christian. I do believe it is a matter of great peril that followers of Christ put themselves in.
      One drink can make you partially drunk. What I understand, even the U. S. Military recognizes that.
      God bless you my brother. Stay sober in mind.
      T.A.

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  6. People keep bringing up Jesus changing the water into wine, and drinking wine at the Last Supper. Jesus was perfect and without sin, so in my opinion, wine would have no effect on Him. We, on the other hand were born into sin. I am choosing to abstain from alcohol, even though I do like wine, because it hurts my Christian walk. I tend to get loose lipped. Funny how some Christians don’t smoke, but drink alcohol. Both are toxic to our body and we must remember that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit!

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    • Gina, Thank you for reading the blog, and for your comments. I am in agreement with you. I find it sad that many Christians are falling for the lie of alcohol. Maybe I should say the lie Satan perpetrates concerning beverage alcohol..
      Thanks again.
      T.A.

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  7. I have done plenty of research on the words used to describe wine. Yayin, shekar, tirosh, asis, oinos, these words all refer to fermented wine. There is no evidence in the Bible whatsoever (that I know of ) that the Jews watered their wine down, before drinking. I would be interested in you identifying a passage that talks about watering down their wine, as a practice. The only mention I know of watering down wine was the illustration of a curse, in Isaiah 1:22. I know that on occasion spices would be mixed in, but not water.

    It is my understanding that the ancient greeks did water down their wine, but that was so they wouldn’t get drunk too fast during their parties. The Greeks cut the wine down to about the level of today’s beer. Still plenty of alcohol to get drunk if you wanted to.

    There is no textual evidence whatsoever that the wedding in Cana resulted in drunkenness. To declare that there was drunkenness is pure supposition. The fact that Jesus created wine is evidence that drinking alcoholic beverages, in and of itself, is not sinful.

    Absolutely drunkenness is determined by oneself, just like gluttony is determined by oneself.

    There are all kinds of activities, that, when not exercised in moderation, lead to sin, such as the eating of food, watching TV, playing video games, playing musical instruments. Should we stop engaging in these activities, because some abuse them? Should Christians refuse to take pain medicine, because of the abuse of pain medicines and the detrimental effect on society from that? Should Christians not own firearms, because of the misuse of firearms? Should Christians not own cars, because 55,000 people a year get killed in car accidents?

    The world system existed in biblical times too, and it involved drunkenness then as well. That did not stop New Testament Christians or Old Testament Israelites from drinking alcohol moderately. All these objections are extrabiblical. I am not criticizing you for deciding personally to abstain. God has led you to that, and who am I to question it? My wife and I went through a period of time where we personally refused to buy anything Disney, go to Disney movies, or visit its theme parks, when Michael Eisner was CEO, We had lots of reason, but primarily we felt like Disney was pursuing a stridently anti-Biblical agenda. We did not judge others who did not join us.

    I engaged in this dialogue not because I feel slighted, I wanted a fight, or just want to prove you wrong. I think the cause of Christ is hurt when clergy etc., use supposition and isogesis to perpetuate the elevation of a tradition of man to doctrine. When young people are raised in the church to believe something is wrong as a matter of doctrine, and not because of a choice regarding liberty in Christ, and then discover upon adulthood that the doctrinal position is nonexistent, this can lead to disillusionment or even rejection and turning away from the church. (Not my experience by the way, I am firmly a part of Christ’s church) I think the way to deal with difficult moral questions is to be intellectually honest about what the Bible says, and then say, “Although there is room scripturally for different positions than mine on {xxx} issue, here is why I personally choose {xxx}, and I encourage you to do the same”, if you choose to not exercise your liberty in Christ.

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    • Why do you persist in trying to change my mind? You disagree with me; I disagree with you. Let’s leave it at that. I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. You have made up your mind. I have mine made up. I still do not understand why certain Christians want to defend beverage alcohol in the time which we live. A time where alcohol is at every “party”; every gathering; on tailgates, tables and in every grocery store; with a few rare exceptions.
      “Numb you mind”. “Numb your thinking”. That is the motto of the day. Yet God has declared several times by the apostle Paul and apostle Peter to be of “sound mind”.
      I have not said anything about anyone not being a Christian it they choose to drink. I merely thing we all need to think strongly about anything which affects our thinking and judgment. Many of those 55,000 people killed in car wrecks are due to alcohol. And many of those who misuse guns and kill innocent people are related to drugs including alcohol.
      By the way. The people entangled in beverage alcohol do not have the liberty in Christ. I am in the liberty of Christ. I believe Paul says not to use liberty for an excuse to sin.
      -T.A.

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  8. The third paragraph was the only thing I declared as my opinion. Really the better way to describe that paragraph is that paragraph is my conclusion about the parallel between social consciousness movements of the 19th and 20th/21st centuries. I have no studies, academic articles, etc., that I know of that support this, it is purely my own surmise.

    On the other hand the other paragraphs in my last post were written authoritatively. I specifically related that all Christians before the temperance movement dealt with this issue, including the great leaders of our faith pre-temperance movement, and they fell on the side of drinking moderately.

    The Proverbs passage is inapposite to our discussion. This is referring to kings drinking wine while they are performing their official duties, not what they do on their private time. Again, if Jesus drank wine moderately, then it is OK for us to do the same. Paul advised TImothy to drink a little wine. Is it a sin to drink alcohol or not? If it was not a sin to drink wine in ancient times, it is not a sin today. I thought God is immutable.

    Your platitude for abstaining from wine is fine for you. By my reckoning of liberty in Christ as related to us in Romans 14, you should not be applying your personal convictions to others.

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    • Andy, If you had done your Biblical research you would find that the grapes on the vine in passages of Scripture are called “wine”. Also that though it fermented naturally without help they watered it down. However, the water Jesus turned into “wine” was of the heavenly sort; made without human touch, feet or hands; thus greatly improved over any other. Do you really think that the Creator would contribute to drunkenness; as was most likely going on at that wedding in Cana?
      Also, is drunkenness determined by one’s own self? As you imply in another comment.
      I realize there are Christians who participate with the world in the drinking of beverage alcohol. That is something they will answer for; not me. As there are many things I probably will be judged for too, that so closely resembles the world; the only hope, and promise I have is that of the cross of Jesus Christ; as do my brethren who are persuaded drinking is okay.
      I will not, however, change my position on beverage alcohol. Partly because of the testimony of so many who were saved by the power of the cross from alcohol, and have never took another drink. Also because a whole family (Jeremiah 35) was commended for not drinking beverage alcohol (wine); and you will not find such commendation for the drinking of it.
      Another thing, with the highways having so many driving accidents due to alcohol; why would a Christian commend drinking alcohol? With so many families abused by alcoholic mothers and fathers why would we want to commend the drinking of beverage alcohol? It seems to me the proper thing would be to speak out vehemently against it.
      No matter how much one moderately drinks it still affects the thoughts, and stability of that individual.

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  9. The question of when alcohol affects sober thinking is an issue that each believer must deal with personally, and it is between the believer and God, as with any Romans 14 matter. I think everyone has to answer the question though, because some will say, “My conscience leads me to conclude that I cannot have any beverage alcohol and maintain a sober mind.” Others will disagree, including me. Ultimately, it is the individual believer’s call.

    Many great leaders of our faith have had to address this question for themselves, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Increase Mather, and other church leaders who lived before the mass social movement and eventual political movement of the 19th century known as Temperance (ironically, the word temperance is not equivalent to abstention, it is the noun form of “temper” and the movement started out as a call to moderation on the amount of alcohol consumed, particularly liquor, not the complete abstention from all alcoholic beverages.) Charles Spurgeon actually was a moderate drinker, by my understanding, but gave it up out of peer pressure, as he lived during the height of the movement. I believe that Jesus himself had to address this issue, because, like any other Jew from that era, and before and after, he consumed fully fermented wine, undiluted by water. There is no biblical textual evidence otherwise, that I am aware of.

    (This paragraph is purely my opinion)Temperance, along with several other social consciousness issues, such as abolition and voting rights for women (not saying all these things are bad, just noting how they came about), were the 19th century version of current social consciousness issues, such as political correctness, environmentalism, pro homosexual marriage, etc. If a person living back then did not ascribe to the predominant social consciousness movement of the day, they just were not a good and polite person, just as today Christians are castigated by the culture for not getting on board with these various social movements.

    There should not be a declaration by those who conclude that they personally cannot drink alcohol, that no one else could possibly consume beverage alcohol and be a non carnal, devout Christian. I think this has been the circumcision of our times, i.e., abstentionists profess that the only way to be properly following Christ is to be saved, and to abstain from alcohol. That “work” has to be squeezed in, when the Bible itself does not condemn the moderate consumption.

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    • Andy, Thanks for your comments. Like you said though it “…Is purely my opinion”. The wisdom of its day said, “It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink…” Proverbs 31:4ff The Christian in a culture where nothing happens without alcoholic beverage should be as kings and queens.

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  10. 1st Timothy 3:8. ” . . . not double-tongued or addicted to much wine.” Why is the word “much” in there? It is in there because it was perfectly acceptable for a new testament Christian, even a leader in the church, to consume alcohol moderately. Just as it is perfectly acceptable today, for a Christian to consume alcohol moderately. Abstention from alcohol is a perfectly acceptable choice, but so is moderate consumption. You are elevating your personal choice, which is a tradition of man, to the level of doctrine, if you argue that the Bible condemns moderate consumption. Drunkenness verses have nothing to with this issue, any more than gluttony verses have to do with the appropriate eating of meat, or any food for that matter.

    We can always go to Deuteronomy 14:26. God calls on Israelites who are too far away to bring the tithe to Jersualem, to spend the tithe money on many things, including wine or strong drink, and then feast and rejoice in God’s name.

    By the way, Jesus himself said he came drinking and eating, in Matthew 11 and Luke 7. This was in contrast to John the Baptist, who drank only water, and the pharisees criticized John too. Jesus was explaining that the pharisees were using the fact that he drank wine as an opportunity to falsely accuse him of being a drunkard. The accusations were mere pretexts, and whatever someone did who was serving God, the pharisees found fault, if the service upset the pharisees’ applecart. You are wrong about what the text says.

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    • The question of “be sober minded” comes in here. When does the alcohol begin affecting sober thinking? That is a question only the drinkers can answer. Answer honestly.
      T.A.

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  11. I know this is an old Post, but its always a new topic of someone’s conversation and I needed the answer…wine, does it mean alcohol or grape juice. I’m just pressed to think that when Jesus turned water to wine, he wasn’t out having a drunken party with some of his buddies…he was drinking the best tasting grape juice you will never find again. In that day, the great amazing, refreshing drink was grape juice. But wouldn’t it morally conflict with the entire being of Jesus Christ, the perfect man that knows no evil…to be partaking in alcohol almost to tempt himself. That to me does not sound like something Jesus Christ would do. And furthermore, even if alcohol drink is not a “Thou shalt not…” commandment, wouldn’t it still be just as bad to be around the guilty pleasure (carnal pleasure)?And with that said, I leave you with the verse that stands out in my mind: “Ephesians 5:10-14…..11:and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them….”

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  12. The greek word in John 2:11 where Jesus turns water into wine is oinos. Same word is used in Ephesians 5:18, “do not get drunk on wine.” Lots of Old Testament verses you might be missing.
    Ecclesiastes 9:7 Drink your wine with a merry heart
    Psalms 104:14-15 God gives wine that makes glad the heart of men
    Isiah 55:1 Come and buy wine and milk
    Amos 9:14 Speaks of drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing.

    I agree excess is a sin. So is excess of food but no one wants to go there….

    I borrowed this last quote that I think sums it up.

    ” The attitude of Jesus toward wine, like that of the entire Bible, is neutral, praising its use and finding fault in its intemperate use.”

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    • Mark, What can you do with the scriptures I gave you. I enjoy and love the drinking of the fruit of the vine. I find the red quite satisfying.
      However, I will stick with what the Proverbs says, and always remember there is no commendation to anyone for drinking alcoholic beverage; and there is for abstaining from it.
      Thanks for your comments. However if you are trying to persuade me to change my heart and mind, I am even more persuaded today than at any time in my life beverage alcohol should be avoided. I desire to have a “sober” mind, and that is impossible with beverage alcohol.
      T.A.

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  13. Jesus is the foundation of the Christian faith. Jesus didn’t feel that He was being a bad example drinking wine as best I can tell. Who are we to condemn alcohol in the name of Christianity? Are we gods?

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    • Mark, Thanks for coming and reading at “All Things Baptist”. There is no evidence that Jesus ever drank alcoholic beverage wine. He was accused by those who hated Him of being a “wine bibber”, but they accused Him of blasphemy as well; so that blows that.
      Jesus, the Son of God knows the writings of the Old Testament; it is the only Bible He had to read at that time.
      It warns in Proverbs of the dangers of alcohol “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise” (Proverbs 20:1); He also knew of the blessing on one family because the head of that family refused to drink wine; probably even the fruit of the vine; and God commended the Rechabites in Jeremiah 35.
      Would the Son of God, Knowing the blessings of the Father, and knowing the Word of God, the inspired Proverbs, and all the warnings have really been a wine bibber and drank beverage alcohol?
      There is also more to consider in Proverbs 31:1-6
      He is the Christian faith. Without Him there would be no salvation. Everything rides on His own obedience to the Word of God. If He was not obedient in every word; He was not sinless, and then He would not be the Son of God or Savior and Lord.
      Thanks again.
      T.A.

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  14. I know that that the abuse of alcohol has caused agreat deal of problems in this country. However, I don’t think that the Bible teaches total Abstenance. I know that both in the Ot and Nt there are Scriptual texts to the contrary. I have seen obese pastors preach about temperance and its not all glandular!! ( GLUNTENEY) !! hOW ABOUT THE MISUSE OF MONIES BY THE CHURCH AND WHAT ABOUT THE ABUSE OF OUR SEXUALITY. yET, WE DON”T PROHIBIT THE USE OF FOOD, MONEY AND OUR SEXUALITY, JUST, ITS ABUSE.

    n.y.

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    • Nick, Thanks for reading and leaving your comment.
      Those things are sinful as well. They are abuse. The thing about it is no one mishandles an automobile and kills someone because of gluttony, sex, or money abuse. Most of the time in these states people still have their senses about them, they are still sober, and sober minded. We are directed in and by Scripture to be “sober minded”, and we cannot be by drinking beverage alcohol.
      Thanks again.
      T.A.

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  15. I just found your “blog”, I have struggled with this for some time…. I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church the daughter of a deacon and all of my life was taught that if you are a Christian you should abstain from alcoholic beverages. While there is nothing in the Bible that clearly states this… my stance has always been that it is certainly a stumbling block for others and can lead to so many other things. If we as Christians keep letting our morals decline I am not sure where it will end up! The old “boiled frog syndrome”! I for one find it hard to see my christian friends out socializing and cannot do so without their margaritas and wine! Some may say I am being judgemental. As Christians if we are doing the same thing everyone else is how are we any different from the sinners? I just don’t feel I can be a Christian witness with a beer in my hand! Just my opionion and I appreciate so much finding this blog!

    nb

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    • Nancy, You are right. Sober mindedness and other things are related to not drinking beverage alcohol; though the prohibition is not given.
      Thank you for your comment.
      T.A.

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  16. The problem with forbidding drink when Scripture does not forbid drink is that we create a standard for holiness that is extra-biblical. It gives people an external standard by which to measure their “godliness.’ Always dangerous to add to Scripture. Warnings are not prohibitions but are guides to keep us from danger. The danger is drunkenenss. The warning is a protector. But just as a warning sign on a highway is not a prohibition from using the highway, neither are warning signs concerning drink a prohibition. There are many benefits to using highways–even with all of the dangers that may be lurking. The Bible offers many benefits and blessings that are associated with drink. The warnings help us to enjoy the good gifts that God has given His people. We are always tempted to love the gift and forget the giver. So when a Christian drinks, he is to drink to remember the goodness of God in giving the fruit of the vine as a gift to His people.

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  17. T.A., I think you’re imagining Dixon’s “anger”, presumably because you won’t (or can’t) address his points directly. The Baptist prohibition against alcohol isn’t a time-honored tradition with centuries of textual support, it’s a latter-day (within the last century) change in dogmatic beliefs as a response to the (perceived) abuses of the old saloon system that dominated prior to Prohibition.

    The idea that the wine of biblical times was really grape juice is farcical on its face. You are, essentially, presuming that the writers of the ancient texts were either lying or stupid and could not distinguish a fermented (wine) from an unfermented (grape juice) beverage. Ridiculous. There were numerous beneficial effects of the fermentation process above and beyond the inebriating effects – alcohol acts as a preservative against spoilage and, we are learning more each day, is very beneficial when consumed in moderate amounts.

    There are numerous references, in the New Testament particularly, to the beneficial social and personal effects of drinking wine. Jesus himself drank wine and served it at meals, and converted impure water to pure wine. Thus, in your effort to validate a thoroughly modern and unsupported dogmatic point, Baptists like yourself reach backwards to the Old Testament for some fire and brimstone scripts you can use to support your otherwise unsupportable arguments.

    Look, no one is asking you to drink or even to like the idea of drinking or others drinking. All we’re asking for is a little bit of consistency in how you choose to rationalize and defend your argument – because if you’re pursuing the scriptural approach, you are destined to fail.

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  18. I am an alcoholic and can not have even one drink. AA helped me get sober, and I am thankful for that, but I quickly came to understand that “God” is all throughout the 12-step program. I decided to start attending a Baptist church and slowly but surely got my life straightened out and it has been almost 4 years since. I am now attending Bible college and have recently become the worship leader at my church – a miracle really.
    Christians who drink are playing with fire. You may never get burned, but yet you might. It all depends on the person. Are you prone to alcoholism or are you a “normal” person who can drink half-a-beer and throw the rest away?
    The only way to tell is to drink. The more you drink, the less fruit you will produce, that is clear to me.
    Whatever you do, don’t cause your brother to stumble. You may not get burned but maybe someone else will. I would really like to know if the wine Jesus made at the Cana wedding was alcoholic wine or not. For me it all comes down to that. If so, I can’t understand why.

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    • Thanks so much for leaving your testimony with us. It is a blessing to know of some who have been delivered from alcoholic beverages.
      I believe the Bible is clear on the matter of alcohol, and the child of God. Check out Proverbs 20 verse 1 and Proverbs 23 verses 29- 35. Also read Proverbs 31 verses 1-5 ff. In Proverbs 23 we are told, “Look not upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup…” Now wouldn’t Jesus be violating this decree by making alcoholic beverage for a wedding? It appears so to me. If not there is a large problem with Jesus.
      I trust Jesus with the matter. The word was inspired by Him and it is true.
      Thanks for your testimony and leaving it with us.
      T.A.

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      • John 2:8-11. When Jesus turns the water into wine, the founder of the feast notes that, typically, one would serve the best wine first, then lesser wines after people had already had a bit to drink, in practice…but that this wine Jesus has made is the best of the wines proffered at the wedding. Is it really your claim that this was just about the flavor of various grape juices?

        Luke 7:33-34. Jesus clearly notes that he is wine drinker and that some will refer to him as a drunkard.

        As I noted above…you are picking and choosing passages and interpretations to support your preconceived notion, rather than letting scripture speak for itself.

        There simply is no scriptural prohibition on responsible drinking.

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  19. I am so happy I found your blog. The information on your blog needs to be discovered so I have added you to my Google News Reader. I really look forward to reading more posts from you. Keep up the good work!

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  20. There are two prohibitions against drinking. One is when you enter the Tent of Meeting (Lev 10:9) which could probably be translated to the church today. The second was if you take the vow of a Nazirite (Num 6:3) which also prohibits any consumption of any part of the grape plant.

    I don’t know that I would promote the use of alcohol, but I can not find a Scriptual basis for a general prohibition against.

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    • Mike,
      Thanks for your comment. Even if we take the two verses you give; wouldn’t that give us reason enough to say, “It is not right for a Christian to drink beverage alcohol”? The “Tent of meeting” where the ark of the covenant was represents the presence of God; We have the presence of God with us always. The Nazarite vow was a special vow, a calling; are we not all specially called in Christ?
      Thanks again.
      T.A.

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      • That’s strange, T.A. I note from your picture you have short hair…thus you apparently ignore Num. 6:5, also part of the Nazarite vow, which calls for not cutting one’s hair. Why is that passage okay for you to ignore? Wouldn’t that passage be “reason enough,” as you call it, to avoid cutting one’s hair?

        It seems like you are being really selective in picking and choosing the parts of the Nazarite vow you like as being important, while those that don’t comport with your lifestyle choices (i.e., short hair) are dismissed. Can you explain this obvious inconsistency in your perspective?

        What about Num 6:6? Isn’t that “reason enough” for us to say it is bad to go to funerals and hospitals…places where dead bodies might be? Yet you strangely don’t advocate for that.

        It seems like you find drinking alcohol personally distasteful and are, thus, twisting a few hand-picked Bible verses to back up your perspective, while totally ignoring other verses, particularly of the Nazarite vow.

        While excessive drinking is clearly unwise, both in scripture and reality, that is a far cry from a scriptural edict requiring total abstinence. It simply isn’t there, try as some might to make it so.

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      • Dixon, I thank you for coming and reading, however i sense a bit of anger, therefore it seems to be yourself who needs to prove what I have written is wrong. I have nothing further to add, except that I am not a nazarite.
        Thanks again.
        T.A.

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  21. The scandal (?) of Jesus turning water into wine appears to go unchallenged as does the wine at the last supper!
    I choose not to drink alcohol based on my preferences but not on biblical chapter and verse! I merely prefer fruit juices and soda water but the occasional margarita is a pleasure indeed!

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  25. Joey,
    Thank you for your comment. More Christians need to realize the dangers of beverage alcohol, and stop using it and promoting its vices.
    Just this morning I heard of Church sponsored softball games where a keg of beer was the choice drink.
    Thanks again.
    T.A.

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  26. I am not a southern baptist, but I will admit I appreciate the article and completely agree!

    Alot of people want to get as close to sin as possible b/c of the carnal desires within.

    God Bless

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